Getting more difficult to start but only from cold - RESOLVED

[dazzler24]

I was going to add to the thread that I've copied in from below but it's from 2015 and has been archived.  My symptoms are similar to what is described in that thread.

Anyway, my otherwise trusty and reliable 2015 Tracer has developed a seemingly increasing propensity to not start from cold,  which is a little concerning as it has always fired up pretty well every time with virtually just a touch of the starter - hot or cold.

If I can describe my symptoms and the sequence I follow it may help the panel to give me a clue as to what's going on.

• Bike's been sitting overnight or longer and I attempt to start it.
• Turn on key allow fuel pump to prime before hitting starter - like I always have.
• Motor cranks strongly and tries to fire but stalls immediately on releasing starter.
• I try that method repeatedly with the same result.
• Next I crack the throttle slightly and can get the bike to start BUT MUST hold the throttle cracked or it will stall.
• I seem to have to hold the throttle open for 15-30 seconds (best guess) before the bike will idle at closed throttle.
• After that the bike behaves normally and will start immediately at all my next stops (i.e. warm)

I know it's been said many times that this bike is sensitive to battery voltage and am curious if this is a contributing factor.  So, without ignition on, battery was checked and read over 13Volts with my FLUKE meter.  Should be OK - yes?

I haven't checked with ignition on or when cranking but what can/should I expect, voltage wise, under those two conditions?

I guess I could try a cold start with a tender connected to see if I get the same problem?

I've checked my diag for codes but it's as clean as a whistle.

I cleared my ISC (Idle Speed Control) (This was just a punt) and took the bike for a ride but that made no difference.

All of this has manifested itself since from when I did a valve lash adjustment and throttle body synch. 🤔

Bike runs like a champion otherwise.  Just very disconcerting though that this problem has developed.

Fuel mapping issue -  O2 sensor dying?  Does it come into play at low revs/on start?

TIA.

 

[dazzler24]

Just following up and maybe answering myself - after doing some more research there are a lot of these kinds of posts around the ridges for these bikes and their variants.  Both here and on other forums and many of them point to the battery as the culprit!

Many report almost the same symptoms as I have and have completely resolved their issue with a new battery.

Here's an example from another forum -

"Had the EXACT same problem with my 2017 FZ09 recently. Have about 5k miles. Felt like a fueling problem because I could give the bike some gas and it would eventually start. Had to keep rpm’s up with a little gas to keep it from stalling on first start in the am. It would require 2-4 starts to turn over and keep running. Didn’t seem to turn over slow like I have experienced with dying batteries on other bikes in the past. After a week of struggling to start I finally got a new battery and after the installation the problem seems to have disappeared. The bike has started right up and kept running for daily commutes on 2 weeks straight now. Runs like a dream again and I’m back to rippin on my way to work."

I'm still open to suggestions of course and have an open mind but it's pointing to maybe a new battery for me.  I'm on my 2nd OEM lead acid YUASA that I installed in 2019 (had to check) so I guess it's had 5 years of service (just like the 1st one that died.... hmmm) and I have added a few power sucking items - GPS, DRLs, dash cams, heated grips, cruise control so....?

Maybe it's time for a new fangled LiFePO4 one that will drop straight in - like this.

[kilo3]

YUASA of 10 years ago is not the same as today but neither are the charging systems on bikes.

I believe you are on the correct path, both for checking voltage drops and/or charge overnight before a test.

Personally with how sensitive these buggers are and the known age of the battery, I'd be confident with firing at least the first shot or if parts cannon at it with a battery.of your flavor.

[dazzler24]

Just a quick follow up.  I left my tender on overnight and it was showing that it was at full charge.

Tried to start but am still getting exactly the same problem.  Cranks and coughs and cranks and coughs ad infinitum.

Might pull the car battery and temporarily hook that up to try.  I'd really like to be certain it's the battery before shelling out the shekels.

And yes I know, some people will say it's already at 5 years just do it - and there is that.

[knyte]

Batteries can fail in weird ways, especially with some of the various chemistries.

I had an AGM battery in my SUV that would run the stereo etc for hours - but the second I'd crank the engine, it'd die.  Took it to a battery shop and they load tested it; confirmed it's hooped.  I got a little over 8 years out of it, so not bad.

[skipperT]

53 minutes ago, dazzler24 said:

Just a quick follow up.  I left my tender on overnight and it was showing that it was at full charge.

Tried to start but am still getting exactly the same problem.  Cranks and coughs and cranks and coughs ad infinitum.

Might pull the car battery and temporarily hook that up to try.  I'd really like to be certain it's the battery before shelling out the shekels.

And yes I know, some people will say it's already at 5 years just do it - and there is that.

Ok, I’ve got some thoughts @dazzler24

- I wouldn’t suggest the car battery thing because it really doesn’t prove anything. It’ll be just like connecting a jumper. (On that note NEVER do that with the engine of a car/truck running just as an fyi as things can get smoked when attempting this on any powersports product. )

-the tender being green after overnight charge isn’t really indicative of the health of the battery. Instead do this simple test:

measure battery voltage next time you go to start the bike, key Off. (you mentioned you already did this, but if you do it after disconnecting the tender then technically the V reading hasn’t had a chance to “settle”. 30 minute wait after disconnection is required. 

now turn the key on (with the rh switch also in the Run position) and count to 30 seconds. Check the voltage again. 
I expect this measurement will be less than 12v which will indicate a worn battery/bad cell/sulfation/etc. if this key-on test results in voltage of 12.1-12.2 you’ll need to pull the battery and take it to get it load tested. Or just replace it, as you’re leaning in that direction anyway. 

we can go from there, but other hard start culprits at this point would be sticky/dirty start switch, start solenoid, weak fuel pump, or valve clearances that are tight. I realize you said you just adjusted them, but if the symptom persists you’ll need to suck it up and recheck the lash.

keep us posted. 
-Skip 

[dazzler24]

4 hours ago, skipperT said:

Ok, I’ve got some thoughts @dazzler24

- I wouldn’t suggest the car battery thing because it really doesn’t prove anything. It’ll be just like connecting a jumper. (On that note NEVER do that with the engine of a car/truck running just as an fyi as things can get smoked when attempting this on any powersports product. )

-the tender being green after overnight charge isn’t really indicative of the health of the battery. Instead do this simple test:

measure battery voltage next time you go to start the bike, key Off. (you mentioned you already did this, but if you do it after disconnecting the tender then technically the V reading hasn’t had a chance to “settle”. 30 minute wait after disconnection is required. 

now turn the key on (with the rh switch also in the Run position) and count to 30 seconds. Check the voltage again. 
I expect this measurement will be less than 12v which will indicate a worn battery/bad cell/sulfation/etc. if this key-on test results in voltage of 12.1-12.2 you’ll need to pull the battery and take it to get it load tested. Or just replace it, as you’re leaning in that direction anyway. 

we can go from there, but other hard start culprits at this point would be sticky/dirty start switch, start solenoid, weak fuel pump, or valve clearances that are tight. I realize you said you just adjusted them, but if the symptom persists you’ll need to suck it up and recheck the lash.

keep us posted. 
-Skip 

Hey Skip thanks for the input - always appreciated. 🙂

OK, here's the readings I recorded as per your advice and a further revelation that is a positive one but a little puzzling, read on.

• Bike sitting OFF tender for 6+ hours (Key off) - 13.06V
• Key ON starter switch in RUN position and wait 30sec - slowly fell to 12.48V then remained steady.

I thought I'd load up the battery with brake on, heated grips at max, GPS and DRLs all on but the battery hung in there and dropped only 0.02V to 12.46V over another minute or so.  Turning the heaters off and releasing the brake allowed the voltage to recover.  Looking reasonably good so far I would have thought?

I went a couple of further steps which may explain what's going on - bear with me.

• I made 3 attempts to start the bike while watching the VM and got the now familiar start/stall sequence every time with the VM dropping below 10V as the starter was cranking.  N.B. - This is not a sophisticated VM and it can't capture instantaneous measurements but voltage did drop to at least 10V and maybe less while attempting to start.
• Now here's the new twist - I'd read elsewhere that many who'd experienced this same issue simply kept holding down the starter beyond the time that it sounded like it was starting until it actually did!
• OK, so I tried this and could hear the bike catch about three or four times before it actually fired up.  All this without touching the throttle as per when it's warm.  Repeated this action three times in an attempt to ensure it wasn't an anomaly and it worked every time.

One theory FWIW.  Assuming the battery is failing: - then when attempting a start, the battery sags below the voltage that the ECU wants/needs to continue and bails out of the start.

However, when holding down the starter the bike's charging system is delivering a long enough 'good' voltage for the ECU to say 'I'm happy with everything - let's start'.

That could be a fairy story but I'm putting it up for discussion or derision.

Doesn't explain why I needed to hold the throttle open for 15-30 seconds previously though before it was able to idle?!

I guess if I dropped a known good battery in there and the issue evaporated, we'd all know the root cause!

Anyway, the plot thickens as they say.

Over.

[OZVFR]

Probably the battery Darryl.

I had an old VF1000 back in the 90's (when batteries were good and made in Japan) and had the original battery finally fail.

The workshop put a new Jap battery in for me while doing a service as I didn't have the place to do it myself at the time.

Bike had trouble starting after that. it would crank normally, but wouldn't fire once I stopped cranking.

Took it back and they found a defective cell, another battery went in and had no problem after it.

Starting with the new battery sounded exactly the same as the defective one, just wouldn't start.

Highly recommend the SSB LiFePO4. Four and a half years old now and always starts instantly, don't ride it every week and has never been on a tender.

If it doesn't fix the problem, at least you'll save a couple of kilos.

 

[dazzler24]

5 minutes ago, OZVFR said:

Probably the battery Darryl.

I had an old VF1000 back in the 90's (when batteries were good and made in Japan) and had the original battery finally fail.

The workshop put a new Jap battery in for me while doing a service as I didn't have the place to do it myself at the time.

Bike had trouble starting after that. it would crank normally, but wouldn't fire once I stopped cranking.

Took it back and they found a defective cell, another battery went in and had no problem after it.

Starting with the new battery sounded exactly the same as the defective one, just wouldn't start.

Highly recommend the SSB LiFePO4. Four and a half years old now and always starts instantly, don't ride it every week and has never been on a tender.

If it doesn't fix the problem, at least you'll save a couple of kilos.

 

Hi Gus.  Yes, that all makes good sense.

I'm off to the SSB store tomorrow to see if they've got an appropriate one in stock.

Thanks for your input.

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that you have one of these - LFP14H-BS

 

And now the recommended replacement according to their website is this following one - LHZ10-S but it's $$$.

[OZVFR]

14 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that you have one of these - LFP14H-BS

 

And now the recommended replacement according to their website is this following one - LHZ10-S but it's $$$.

Yes I have the LFP14. 
Looks like a new improved model has come out, I got mine from Fleabay, AU$189 at the time. But nothing is the same price these days. 

[OZVFR]

Woah, just checked the price. 
Not sure what the huge difference is. 
I originally bought mine for the 1050 Sprint, it just happened that it fit right in the Tracer, never looked to see if it was recommended. I figured that if it started the 1050, it would start the 900. 

[dazzler24]

OK, time to close the loop and report what I found to be the culprit in the hope that it will help someone else who, like me, was scrambling for the answer.

It will be no surprise to those that replied that it was looking as though it was the battery and indeed it was!

I bit the bullet and sold my firstborn to buy a NOCO NLP14 (2.5lbs/1120 grams!! ) and a NOCO LITHIUM/LEAD ACID charger/tender from the large warrior woman who's minions delivered it overnight and on a Sunday!  Very impressed.

(@OZVFR-The shop that sold the local SSB powersports batteries was no longer there so I went down this path - FYI.)

I probably didn't need to get the charger/tender as I'm led to believe that some, eg @OZVFR, have not had the need to use one for their Lithium batteries ever.  But while I was bleeding cash I thought I'd get rid of the few remaining shekels and have one in the toolkit for the future and/or a JIK.

Had to modify the battery lead terminals on the bike as the NOCO connections are a little funky.  I just straightened the right angle tang so that they could lay flat on the NOCO terminals.  No big deal.

Anyway, connected up the battery, turned the key, hit the starter and the old familiar instant start on the first push has returned to how I fondly remembered it. 🙂

So, that certainly was a lesson for me and perhaps for anyone else who thinks that just because the bike cranks strongly and you've got over 12V on the battery that all is well in that department.

Anyway, thanks to all who provided sage advice and here's hoping that my experience with this issue might help those that may find themselves in the same boat one day.

@skipperT - thanks for the tips.

Cheers.

[bwringer]

Thanks for the followup!

The battery for this bike is teensy tiny, and the electronics are pretty fussy about voltage.

With little or no capacity margin, when the battery goes, it goes. You don't get much warning, since all it takes is dropping below the threshold.

Starter motors, of course, are simple devices and will still spin even though voltage has sagged below the point where the ECU will operate.

I've seen this on other fuel-injected bikes as well. 

On early V-Stroms your warning signal was that the clock would reset itself to midnight. The battery would usually start the bike a few more times, but for some reason the clock was very touchy about voltage. Every fall when it got chilly there would be a flood of queries about this. Plenty of riders who didn't believe the replies ended up stranded with dead batteries.

Another thing I've seen many times on all kinds of bikes is terminal bolts that mysteriously loosen themselves. That's always worth checking first, of course. It's one of the favorite tricks of moto-gnomes, and no one knows why...

 

That Noco lithium battery looks extremely skookum, and pricing seems... pretty dang decent, really.

Although why everyone seems to think they have to redesign and revolutionize the humble battery terminal, I'll never know. 

Edited September 29 by bwringer

[OZVFR]

All’s well that ends well Darryl, even though you now won’t be able to afford that operation you always wanted 😁

And I also forgot to mention, on a camp at The Oxley mid winter the temperature in the morning was 0*C. 
Bike still started first go. 

[dazzler24]

10 hours ago, bwringer said:

Thanks for the followup!

The battery for this bike is teensy tiny, and the electronics are pretty fussy about voltage.

With little or no capacity margin, when the battery goes, it goes. You don't get much warning, since all it takes is dropping below the threshold.

Starter motors, of course, are simple devices and will still spin even though voltage has sagged below the point where the ECU will operate.

I've seen this on other fuel-injected bikes as well. 

On early V-Stroms your warning signal was that the clock would reset itself to midnight. The battery would usually start the bike a few more times, but for some reason the clock was very touchy about voltage. Every fall when it got chilly there would be a flood of queries about this. Plenty of riders who didn't believe the replies ended up stranded with dead batteries.

Another thing I've seen many times on all kinds of bikes is terminal bolts that mysteriously loosen themselves. That's always worth checking first, of course. It's one of the favorite tricks of moto-gnomes, and no one knows why...

 

That Noco lithium battery looks extremely skookum, and pricing seems... pretty dang decent, really.

Although why everyone seems to think they have to redesign and revolutionize the humble battery terminal, I'll never know. 

Thanks bwringer.  It annoys me a little when people ask for help and then don't reply to what the resolution or issue was.  No one learns from it then.

And yes, I must admit that I was a little sceptical at first regarding the sensitivity to voltage of these ECU bikes but then, I live and learn.

Regarding the NOCO price - It depends on what side of the world you live on.  However, having said that, it does compare reasonably with the other brands that I looked at here that were of similar specifications.  Always important to compare apples with apples.  P.S. Had to look up "skookum".  I've learned a new word!

So, all in all, I'm a happy chappie again now that my confidence in the machine has returned - and I feel so much lighter now that I've dropped all that weight 😉

Thanks again.